How We See The Old Testament DOES Matter!

Also, Jesus quoted the old testament as though he completely believed and accepted it. The old testament is the promise, the new testament is the fulfillment. The old testament is "thou shalt" while the new testament is "you may" or "you are now able" The old testament is the school master (the one who leads to school) and the new testament is graduation. So many other good analagies. Moses, as representative of the law and it's limits was only able to wander through the wilderness and not to enter the promised land. Moses was the first to actually break the law of Moses. John the baptizer showed in a dramatic way how the law cannot enter into grace. He was called the greatest of the prophets yet he still doubted Christ. When Jesus told the rich young ruler to first sell all, then give all, THEN fo9llow Jesus he was illustrating the limit of doing the law. The old testament was the law but there was faith and grace woven throughout. The bloody sacrifice was all about faith and grace. Obedience verses sacrifice (following the letter of the law) was all about faith and grace. The "heros of the faith in Hebrews" were all about faith and grace. etcetera etcetra etcetra... as Euell Brenner said. He also said that masterpiece of authority; So let it be written. So let it be done!" ;^D
Without the authority of the old testament there is ultimately little or no authority to the new testament.

I am sorry that you chose not to continue our discussion, but that is, of course, entirely your perogative. I do hope you will be gracious enough to permit me to state here, simply, that I do not believe you understood the actual message of my own blog on a related subject, "Removing the Mosaic Veil". In your responses to me there you seemed to take certain liberties with my statements that resulted in putting words into my mouth which did not reflect my position or my understanding on the matter. You then proceeded to very incisively dissect and dismantle the position you attributed to me as a result.

I came out of that exchange feeling, as a result, as though you did not ever really get a chance to comprehend what I was actually saying or form an opinion (positive or negative) about it because you seemed preoccupied with attributing things to me that I was not saying and then expressing your opinions about that. I do hope, in the future, that we can resume dialogue on the topic, so that even if it turns out you disagree with me, it will be my actual position you are disagreeing with instead of whatever coined, minted bandwagon you mistake me for jumping onto. We might then discuss our actual differences in a mutually edifying and enlightening fashion, without the need to resort to summary unilateral judgments or loaded and inflammatory language, if you are so willing.

Till then, shalom.
~Moriah

In response to your blog article here, I would just like to suggest that a great deal of how we see these matters rides upon how we understand terms like "inspiration" and "profitable"; what elements and process we perceive to be involved and referenced in talking about scriptures making us "wise unto salvation" (note that this is, again, "through faith in Jesus Christ"); what it means to be "mindful" of words spoken by prophets and apostles; and what our Lord Himself has testified concerning the ultimate purpose of written scripture, not to mention the fact that He is Himself the Living, INCARNATE Word of God, the DNA-encoding of its very spirit and life.

Without the Spirit that inspired the letters, the letters are dead. Scripture states as much where it indicates no prophecy is of any private interpretation but holy men "of old" spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. Apart from that Spirit, and void of that Spirit, all we have in reading, really, are dead letters -- dry bones -- regardless of where we individually split the theological hair over whether the OT is a chronicle of God's dealing with men or a chronicle of men's understanding of God's dealings. Neither view absolves us of reckoning with the inherent factors of subjectivity involved, for even if God directly verbally dictated each and every word of scripture (a view which is NOT upheld by scripture itself, by the way; this is NOT what "inspiration" means AT ALL) these words would STILL be filtered through the minds of both those who heard them and those who wrote them and subsequently, those reading them. We still cannot remove OUR OWN MINDS from the equation of interfacing with the written scriptures as "the word of God" no matter which view of it we take.

Jesus Himself made it clear that there were TWO questions to be asked when approaching the scriptures, not one. (1) "What is written in the law?" (2) "How do YOU read it?" (Luke 10:26) The fact that two questions exist instead of just the first one, by itself is sufficient to indicate to us that a difference between the two exists, and that it is an important difference. Those who mistake their own #2 for #1 and happen to have "power" and "authority" in this world (whether ecclesiastical, political, or that sick marriage of both) have been foremost throughout history in twisting scripture into a weapon of witch-hunting, heresy-sniffing, one-size-fits-all conformity-mandate-pounding, torture, Inquisition, crusades, the rack, the stake, etc. In fact, every atrocity committed in the sorry annals of Christendom as a HUMAN institution can be traced to this simple failure. In all such historical cases of atrocity in the name of the Christian God, not only have human beings failed to distinguish between what THEY are reading versus what is actually written, but men have utterly failed to reckon with the fact that the two are NOT the same thing, period, to begin with!!

Why does the saying "the devil can quote scripture too, you know" even exist at all if it were all just a simple matter of whatever we think ourselves to be reading must, in fact, be what is actually written and meant by the words? Why then do we have disputes of this nature -- or any theological disputation whatsoever for that matter -- if it is all just a simple matter of "what the Bible says" without having to reckon with the filter of the mind reading it and seeking to comprehend it, without having to take care how we read and search the scriptures? To understand, reckon with, deal with, and get real about the HUMAN element of scripture is NOT to deny the Divine aspect of it whatsoever, but rather, to call us all up to a higher standard where, FAR from some laissez-faire zone where the world, the flesh and the devil can run rampant suggesting anything they wish -- (as they historically have done plenty already with the "hardliner" take on the OT, such as EG advocates in her blog here, ANYWAY, and thus this concern is NOT limited only to one view or another but is a matter of concern for ALL views on scripture) -- no FAR FAR FAR from that, this higher ground calls us to exercise MORE discernment, not less; to be MORE meticulous in what we permit to shape and inform our understanding of the heart of God toward us, not less. Understanding the OT as a chronicle of men's understanding of God's dealing with man in the past does not remove the authority of the scriptures. Rather, it reveals the personal nature of judgment before God (in a similar fashion as the parable of the talents does), and shifts responsibility therein, accordingly, onto the individual in accord with the safeguards of 1 Corinthians 3:1-15 and the immutable New Covenant promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

I am willing to share more about that if others are interested. If Evelyn is uncomfortable with me doing so here I can do it in my own blog. ^_^

I am having a difficult time wondering why this is even an issue, Eve... that the realness and real-life applicability of stories of real history that actually happened and are consolidated into a book on the processes of faith by those selected by God to "walk the walk" of His faith-training processes... and called the Old Testament, even needs to be defended as real.

If it is NOT real... but actual a man-made story... then I want out... I do not want to live in this world anymore. Thank God that any thought of the Old Testament not being exactly what it is... an ACTUAL story that REALLY HAPPENED of real-life people learning to become bearers of the Light of God's Glory, is nothing more than "personalizing" God's absolutely beautiful Word into self-centered subjectivisim. There is no "myth" here... this is the Kindness of God's REAL heart expressing to us REAL people's successes and failures in their "walk of response" to His question to them.

I am fully with you here Eve... I find it sad indeed that a blog like this has become necessary within the body of Christ. We have much better things to focus on than whether the Old Testament is a man-made myth or not.

I am both offended and pissed off right now that i have to even see the need for this blog to take place. Anyone who doesn't like my direct attitude will have to come to Nebraska and shoot me dead then... because I will ALWAYS be appalled when insane subjects come up and are actually defended. This is the horrors of the internet... that I have to actually read the devaluing of God's Precepts into the pathetic form of man-made myth. Who is actually buying into this tripe?

Young David (an ACTUAL live and breathing person... who also was the beautiful example of a man's heart after God), was ACTUALLY offended once in an ACTUAL place and time while Israel stood back and trembled in fright over the taunts of someone who intimidated them. In David's utter disgust of what he was hearing he said these ACTUALLY spoken words:

"...For who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should taunt the armies of the living God?"

I now... at this very moment... understand how he felt. And THAT understanding, my friends, is no man-made myth. I ACTUALLY feel those feelings... right here... right now.

My personal experience has been far more in the reverse of what you speak about, Eve, where the Old Testament is given far more weight, in the commandments and law, rather than grace and mercy - although I do not deny that there are those of whom you speak somehow dismissing the Old Testament, since the new has come. I personally see that the issue is NOT one of either being more God's word than the other.

God's answer and provision for us is, and has always been, Christ. The purposes of God are aimed at making Christ center place in all things, even as it relates to the scriptures. It says beginning Hebrews, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power."

And again in Hebrews, Chapter 10 quotes from Psalm 40:

"Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired,
But a body Thou has prepared for Me;
In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast taken no pleasure.
Then I said, 'Behold I have come (In the scroll of the Book it is written of Me)
to do Thy will, O God.'"

I think we make divisions in order to try and wrap our minds around things when in actuality there is no real division of scripture. The whole of the scriptures are written of Christ, point to Him, are centered in Him, are fulfilled in Him. It is Jesus Christ who has ascended to the right hand of God, having been given a name above every name, far above all rule, authority and power, and it is IN CHRIST that we exercise His authority. Even Satan used scripture when he was tempting Christ . . . "Is it not written ..." and within our own use of scripture, Old or New Testament, we train to become good workmen, rightly dividing the word of truth. Yet, the power is His. We need to go forth, as Paul said, not in word only, but in power.

I know I can babble about scripture, or any other topic, as well as the next person if I have a mind to, but my words, other's words or the words on the pages of the Bible, don't mean much of anything unless they come forth with LIFE and POWER, which is centered in Christ and of which all of scripture speaks, to the praise of the glory of His grace.

Pam said~
"My personal experience has been far more in the reverse of what you speak about, Eve, where the Old Testament is given far more weight, in the commandments and law, rather than grace and mercy - although I do not deny that there are those of whom you speak somehow dismissing the Old Testament, since the new has come. I personally see that the issue is NOT one of either being more God's word than the other."

I do not see anywhere where Eve said anything of the nature you bring up, Pam. I do see her statement that parallels yours though:

Eve Said~
"That's both Old and New Testament.........the WHOLE counsel of God. We're not talking about putting ourselves back under the Law. That's NOT what this blog promotes. We are under grace."

For myself, I have been greatly fascinated with the Old Testament, but can only read it in and through the Provisions and Life of Christ that sets us free not only in our access to the Father, but also in the understanding of His dealings with man. I see the Old Testament in the Light of Grace as much as I do the New Testament. The Living word is threaded through both... and summed up in a tangible point of history in and through the Life, death, and Resurrection of Christ. Old and New feel to me to be the same expression of the unfolding Message of God to us. It unfolded lineally and culminated in the Great Victory.
The Living Word that was "with God in the beginning" continues to unfold within the God given structure of His beautiful Precepts. NONE of it is "man's interpretation" (myth). It is HIS expression of Who He is... graciously unfolded to us not unlike the ever and perpetually perfect blog... written by His Spirit as the gradual expression of His Kingdom unfolded. We were "under law" before Christ... but now Christ is All in all... including the Old Testament... I see it permeated by Him as I read it in and through Who He is. I know very well that I could not understand the Old Testament without the ever-illuminating Light of Christ to bring the pages to Life... but also, the New Testament would be just as difficult to comprehend and ingrain if not seen through the understanding of it being the setting of Grace that brought all the teachings of the old Testement to fruition in and through the Life of the Son.

So, is this what is meant by "the whole counsel of God": the old and new testaments?

Wow - there weren't any comments on here when I typed mine and now that I look at the responses and the place that mine fell, not having read any of it when I wrote my comment, I realize that I have obviously misunderstood what's happening.