emerging church or the emergent church is there a difference?

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Permalink Reply by Mark Winstead on March 26, 2009 at 4:48pm

No one has patented or copyrighted the words, so the words get both get used for two overlapping constructs:

1) there is the larger movement that more typically wears the emerging tag - this is a movement that some have described as being like a "six lane highway" - different lanes with different approaches, but generally they are trying to reach the emerging culture of the world - the post-Christendom/post-modern emerging culture.
2) one of those "lanes" often bears the label emergent. As about as often as not, the 'emergent' label refers to a subset of the 'emerging' church that is more liberal. IMO, this lane has adopted some dangerous heresies - most involved in freely question much that some would consider orthodoxy and has a kind of live and let live philosophy to sin.

Again if you hear something labeled as being emerging or emergent thought or such a church, you have to investigate how the one doing the labeling is using the words.

Mark Driscoll, love or hate him, in the fall of 2007 did an in-depth talk to some pastors about the emerging/emergent churches and thought and gives a good amount of history. And being Driscoll, he bluntly calls out some in that talk for heresy. Whether you like him or not, the talk is worth a listen.

There's two versions. The one at Southeastern Baptist Seminary which isn't on their site anymore but I did find a copy of it here (scroll down toward the bottom before the comments) - it's tailored to pastors and church leaders


and one he did at Mars Hill, which he did with more prep and tailored for this church:

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Permalink Reply by Pat Pileggi on March 26, 2009 at 8:58pm

thanks Mark I will watch the video.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Winstead on March 27, 2009 at 8:53am

You're welcome.

If you want to discuss it more, I'd be glad to, though probably off-line. I've got somewhat of a unique view into the whole thing - never heard the terms or at least much paid attention to it until just a few short years ago.

We moved to MD (after an unemployment situation, not quite by choice) in '03, and went about church hunting. The first one we tried for a few months was a cattle drive with their building situation and size (over a 1000 with five services to hold them all in their tiny space), so we tried this smaller church of about 400 (at the time) led by this up and comer former English lit professor. Great friendly staff, etc. I disagreed with his politics and some of his views, but the senior pastor asked great questions and stretched me intellectually.

In a short time, he grew in fame through his writings and outside lecturing and decided to hand the day to day over, becoming a "pastor emeritus" while engaging in international speaking tours and writing.

I love the guy, but while he asked great questions, I increasingly disagreed with where the discussions went. Opinions seemed to count as much as biblical truth. Acceptance and tolerance became the definition of what it meant to "love", sin was not challenged. The new guy that took over went with a "vision quest" year, and our nicely balanced church that ranged from somewhat conservative to radically liberal believers (politically and theologically - but no real right wingers) went liberal as even moderate thought got driven out.

I did my own exploring of what it meant to engage in a post-Christendom world, and explored other streams or lanes of thought - explored Bell, Driscoll, et al and in the end really like the thought stream of the Aussies - Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch. I think Frost and Hirsch have a very sound approach to the whole issue of reaching the post-Christendom cultures around us.

Oh, that ex-English Lit professor? Brian McLaren. Again, love the guy personally - great sort to hang with and when he's asking questions, great. Just don't buy many of his answers, when he gets around to them.

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Permalink Reply by Gunnar Heiberg (Ariel) on March 27, 2009 at 11:52am

Some additional good info can be found at understandthetimes.org. As always, though, do your own research. As Mark has said, there is quite a mix of stuff out there that is receiving that label, some of it is very good and some of it heretical. Be as the Bareans, who "searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." Acts 17:11. The Bible must be our final authority.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Winstead on March 27, 2009 at 12:43pm

Shouldn't God be our final authority?

And where does the Bible itself testify to being the final authority?

Sorry, you hit a pet peeve of mine.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Cumming on March 27, 2009 at 2:48pm

I think God should be our final authority but if the Bible is the inerrent and infallible, inspired Word of God then that kind of is seeking God as our final authority.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Winstead on March 27, 2009 at 3:00pm

Sorry to distract the discussion, but that would make an interesting discussion in another thread ...

My position is that the Bible is inspired by God, but THE Word of God is Jesus Christ - the Bible itself says so (John 1). The bible contains words of God, but Jesus is THE Word.

Interestingly - the Bible also testifies that Jesus claimed all authority -- making him the final authority according to the testimony of the Bible. The Bible refers to itself as a witness to Jesus (John 5).

Pet peeve #2: the elevation of the bible as the fourth part of the trinity.

Michael Cumming said:

I think God should be our final authority but if the Bible is the inerrent and infallible, inspired Word of God then that kind of is seeking God as our final authority.

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Permalink Reply by Gunnar Heiberg (Ariel) on March 27, 2009 at 6:24pm

Mark Winstead said:

Shouldn't God be our final authority?

And where does the Bible itself testify to being the final authority?

Sorry, you hit a pet peeve of mine.

------------------
My position is that the Bible is inspired by God, but THE Word of God is Jesus Christ - the Bible itself says so (John 1). The bible contains words of God, but Jesus is THE Word.

Interestingly - the Bible also testifies that Jesus claimed all authority -- making him the final authority according to the testimony of the Bible. The Bible refers to itself as a witness to Jesus (John 5).

Pet peeve #2: the elevation of the bible as the fourth part of the trinity.

Quite possibly, a full discussion of this would best be moved to another thread. However you asked the question here, so I will answer here, although even this could only be considered a partial answer.

The question of the authority of scripture has a lot to do with Pat's original question. So far, it would appear that we all agree that God should be the final authority. My point is that God has, by way of the Bible, provided His people with a reliable and authoritative written revelation of Himself and all that we need to know of Him in this present life. Jesus grants authority to the written scriptures by extensively quoting them. Peter grants authority to Paul's writings as well as other apostles in 2Pet. 3:1,2,15,16 (see below).

Do a search on the phrase "it is written".

Here are a few scriptures to consider as starting points:

Jos 1:8
“This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Luke 24:25-27,32,44-46
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 “Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
32 And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?”
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,

Acts 17:1-3,10,11
1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.
2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.”
10 ¶ Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Acts 24:14
“But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

Rom 15:4
For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

2Pet. 3:1,2,15,16
1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder),
2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Winstead on March 27, 2009 at 7:27pm

As John Eldredge would say - those show scriptures to be foundational, and yet they are ultimately incomplete. that is why Jesus said my sheep hear my voice. No need for that if the bible was complete.

The bible has a foundational element, not an ultimate or final authority. They are but a testimony of God. As Jesus said in John 5:39 :: You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

There is too much worship of the bible (and "the church" for that matter)

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Permalink Reply by Gunnar Heiberg (Ariel) on March 28, 2009 at 2:42am

Mark Winstead said:

As John Eldredge would say - those show scriptures to be foundational, and yet they are ultimately incomplete. that is why Jesus said my sheep hear my voice. No need for that if the bible was complete.

The bible has a foundational element, not an ultimate or final authority. They are but a testimony of God. As Jesus said in John 5:39 :: You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

There is too much worship of the bible (and "the church" for that matter)

We may be splitting hairs somewhat over a definition of terms. I definitely believe that there is a need for us to hear the voice of the Spirit, both directly/personally and by way of the Gifts of prophesy, wisdom and knowledge and I have been blessed to receive plenty of all of those. So in that limited sense, the bible would be considered 'incomplete', but such a word would be in agreement with any principal already stated in the bible.

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Permalink Reply by Pat Pileggi on March 28, 2009 at 1:04pm

HI guys, I've been following your discussion and I think it's interesting because both of you consider Scripture to be God breathed, authoritative in all areas of life and that God is still active in our lives. I enjoy this kind of loving discourse. We are emerging, we are living for the glory of the living God. Thanks guys for the info and for being so understanding with sensitive areas of thought.

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